Here follows a discussion between my friend VJmes and myself about the meaning to the Universe, nihilism and existence... Among other things.
VJmes says (11:11 PM):
There is one good thing about being nihilistic
You never get stressed
Hedon says (11:12 PM):
Hah, I'm not sure if that is always the case with nihilistic persons
VJmes says (11:12 PM):
more often than not it is
Well the ones that realise that any effort is inheritantly futile and meaningless.
Hedon says (11:14 PM):
I think people are either naturally stressed or not, while environment does impact it to some extent, it's mostly your own personality that decides how stressed you are
but in the same respect, your personality will influence your views on nihilism
VJmes says (11:14 PM):
Pretty much
Hedon says (11:14 PM):
so it's hard to say whether low-stress is a result of nihilism, or they are both a result of your personality
VJmes says (11:14 PM):
some people are far more adept to religion than others
Hedon says (11:15 PM):
Which is interesting
VJmes says (11:15 PM):
I believe that there are a lot of people who simply cannot deal with a world without religon
or a world without meaning
It'd be too bleak for some people live in
Hedon says (11:16 PM):
But is that genetic or environmental?
VJmes says (11:16 PM):
Of the whole nature verses nurture front
It's probably a combination
with a strong bias towards the nurture
Hedon says (11:17 PM):
I think everyone needs a reason for existence, even if that existence is nothing
VJmes says (11:17 PM):
Not really
Every other species exsists with no real purpose
Hedon says (11:17 PM):
There is no possible way to explain existence without a reason
but they do have a purpose, to reproduce
VJmes says (11:18 PM):
and what purpose does that serve outside of this planet?
Our existence has no real meaning, think about it, of the 13 billion estimated years the universe has exsisted
We've been around for roughly 100,000 years
We populate one planet of possibly trillions
Hedon says (11:19 PM):
Well, it could be said that without our existence what function would our planet serve, had we not been created what would happen to our solar system, not just now, but in the future
VJmes says (11:19 PM):
Why does our planet have to serve a function?
it would do what it'd do without us
Hedon says (11:20 PM):
Because doesn't everything, even a small asteroid serve as a function
even if that function serves no balance of purpose
VJmes says (11:20 PM):
the sun would burn out, collapse and the solar system would drift a part
Hedon says (11:20 PM):
it is still a function
but who is to say that our existence isn't important for this solar system, obviously something happened right, or wrong in the very beginning for this to happen the way it is
VJmes says (11:21 PM):
Humanity as a whole is that insigifigent that in all reality we will leave no difference in this universe
Hedon says (11:21 PM):
in the universe maybe not
but in our world, we do impact it, and then our impacts on our world may impact the surrounding planets
VJmes says (11:22 PM):
We are simply the by-product of a planet that was exactly the right distance from a star burning at the right temperature to produce life
Doubtful
Hedon says (11:22 PM):
in this day and age yes
VJmes says (11:22 PM):
Even in thousands of years
Hedon says (11:22 PM):
but as space exploration becomes easier and bigger, we will start to leave our mark on our solar system
VJmes says (11:23 PM):
the constraints of physics and distance mean that humanity will never travel outside this solar system
Hedon says (11:23 PM):
Humans may not, but our creations can and those creations could impact other planets, and life forms in the distant future
VJmes says (11:23 PM):
and who's to say that in 20 years an astroid won't come along and wipe us all out
our existence is so fragile, it could almost be considered non-exsistant
Our creations will breakdown into their basic elements over millions of years
and continue to break down on an atomic level until they become simple chemicals
Hedon says (11:24 PM):
an interesting thing that came out of [my philosophy tutorial] discussion on Spinoza, is that humans are a result of the universe discovering itself
VJmes says (11:24 PM):
How has the universe discovered itself?
Hedon says (11:25 PM):
Spinoza dictates, from the definitions and axioms held by philosophers past, that there are two types of substances in this world
VJmes says (11:25 PM):
which are?
Hedon says (11:26 PM):
ones that are limited, caused by something, such as humans, we are caused by other humans (sex) and as one human ages, and dies, they are replaced by another of the same (another human)
VJmes says (11:26 PM):
the other?
Hedon says (11:26 PM):
and ones that are unlimited, a substance that stands about all else, and is infinite
VJmes says (11:26 PM):
That's impossible
Hedon says (11:26 PM):
self-causing substance
not entirely
VJmes says (11:26 PM):
Even if the physics on it were wrong
Hedon says (11:27 PM):
What physics?
VJmes says (11:27 PM):
the fundamental believe is that there are a finite number of atoms in the universe
it's estimated that there are 26x10^98 atoms in the universe
Hedon says (11:28 PM):
Spinoza dictates however that the unlimited substance is god, and that from this infinite substance, or infinite attributes, everything is caused by this self-scausing substance
but how many were there to begin with?
VJmes says (11:28 PM):
That sounds awfully theistic
Hedon says (11:28 PM):
it is and it isn't
VJmes says (11:28 PM):
the same
no matter is created or destroyed, same with energy
It just takes a different form
Hedon says (11:29 PM):
Although some physicists dispute that
VJmes says (11:29 PM):
What, Newton's 3rd law?
No one disputes that
it is the most fundamental law in science
Hedon says (11:30 PM):
I've seen people claim that certain observations can't be true according to newtowns 3rd alw
things regarding black holes and string theory etc
VJmes says (11:30 PM):
Dude, there's a conclusive proof on it
black holes themselves are theoretical
I have a video by a comedian
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eScDfYzMEEw
George Carlin, the man was a genius
Hedon says (11:31 PM):
I love george carlin
VJmes says (11:31 PM):
Everyone does
No wait
Few people do
Hedon says (11:33 PM):
Well, anyway, as much as you can say that we serve no purpose, you can't be definitive and completely truthful in that statement, and as long as there is possibility of error, there is a possibility that our existence does impact, however minutely, the existence of the Universe
VJmes says (11:34 PM):
but to say otherwise you have to answer one question
Hedon says (11:34 PM):
Ignoring soulless physics for a moment, there could well be existential meaning within the universe itself, even if we are a hair on it's head
VJmes says (11:34 PM):
What meaning does the universe have?
Hedon says (11:34 PM):
I have no fucking clue
VJmes says (11:35 PM):
The lack of this answer implies that there is no meaning
Hedon says (11:35 PM):
I find that logic falliable
VJmes says (11:35 PM):
Until someone even theorises a possible meaning
What can you say?
Hedon says (11:35 PM):
Just because you can't answer something does not mean that an answer does not exist
VJmes says (11:36 PM):
No but the assumption should be made until there is an answer
Hedon says (11:36 PM):
The fact though, that you can question the meaning of the universe, means that there is an existence, for if there was no existence to it, then you couldn't think of the universe and its potential to have meaning in the first place
You can't think of things that don't exist
and if you can think of it, then it must exist
Cartesian Philosophy, I think therefore I am
VJmes says (11:37 PM):
Something can exsist with no meaning
Hedon says (11:37 PM):
can it?
VJmes says (11:37 PM):
Yes
Hedon says (11:38 PM):
But what about purpose?
Surely everything that exists has a purpose
however minute
VJmes says (11:38 PM):
No
Hedon says (11:38 PM):
No what?
VJmes says (11:39 PM):
You can't just make an assumption that if something exists, it must have a meaning
Hedon says (11:39 PM):
But I'm not making that assumption
VJmes says (11:39 PM):
Well you are
Hedon says (11:40 PM):
I'm saying that, that which exists has a purpose, for if it didnt, then it wouldn't exist
VJmes says (11:40 PM):
Your saying that the universe exsists, thus it has to have a meaning
I think therefore I am
I disagree, something can exsist without meaning
Hedon says (11:41 PM):
Ok, but can something exist without a purpose?
VJmes says (11:41 PM):
Well the universe exists without purpose
Hedon says (11:41 PM):
Well what would exist if the Universe didn't?
VJmes says (11:41 PM):
Nothing
Hedon says (11:41 PM):
How can nothing exist? For it is nothing
VJmes says (11:42 PM):
How did you make that jump?
If the universe does not have a purpose, then everything within it does not have purpose
everything in it exists as part of the universe that lacks meaning
Even by scope if something was dependant on another
thus giving it purpose and meaning
it is still inheritantly purposeless because the universe has no purpose
Hedon says (11:44 PM):
But everything inside the universe, such as the equilibrium of the planets movements are based on its distance from the centre of the solar system, is dependent on something
Your existence was dependent on the fact that your parents got drunk and accidently had a child
VJmes says (11:44 PM):
I was planned unlike you
Hedon says (11:44 PM):
XD
VJmes says (11:44 PM):
By inheritance, We have no meaning
even by our own scope we have no meaning
Hedon says (11:45 PM):
But I fail to understand how there can be no meaning in this universe, as long as we are dependent on something else
VJmes says (11:45 PM):
the planet could wipe us if any condition changed slightly
and we would not have affected the universe at all.
Hedon says (11:45 PM):
We wouldnt, but the universe would have affected us
VJmes says (11:45 PM):
So?
We no longer exsist
If the universe affected us, what difference does it make if we no longer exsist?
For something to have meaning, it's function and purpose must be constant
Hedon says (11:46 PM):
In the Universe, maybe nothing
VJmes says (11:46 PM):
on the planet nothing
Look at what happened in 50,000 years
Hedon says (11:47 PM):
But within ourselves, our purpose and function has meaning, for we keep on fucking and we keep on breeding
VJmes says (11:47 PM):
plants and animals long since past have been burnt up into simple chemicals (CO2)
Hedon says (11:47 PM):
Regardless of the impact we have on anything outside our planet, we do have an impact on ourselves
VJmes says (11:47 PM):
So?
Hedon says (11:48 PM):
So we aren't devoid of meaning
VJmes says (11:48 PM):
That impact is futile if we're all going to be eventually wiped out
Hedon says (11:48 PM):
Not for now
For now we are still impacting the world and the planet around us
VJmes says (11:48 PM):
The onyl way you could otherwise think he have a meaning is if you believe in quantam immortality
there there is a reality in which humanity is immortal
Yeah but assume we all died tomorrow
the world would break us all down
and in thousands of years we would become the same matter in which we originated
Hedon says (11:50 PM):
Ok, how about humans ourselves are merely just an accident gone wrong, that in another planet a perfected existence of a meaningful species exists
VJmes says (11:50 PM):
The first lifeforms were created from the earth itself
the last ones will return to the eath in the same way
Hedon says (11:50 PM):
That it will
VJmes says (11:51 PM):
Possible
Hedon says (11:51 PM):
But if there was no meaning to us being here now, then why are we here now
VJmes says (11:51 PM):
Though all established theories on life would indicate that they would be as just as fragile existence as us.
Why are we here now?
because your parents fucked one night, shot you out 9 months later
and in approximately 80 years you will die
be put into a box
put into the ground
Hedon says (11:52 PM):
No, I am here because contraceptive pill failed
VJmes says (11:52 PM):
baha
point still
in 80 years you will break into the earth once more
what you do in that time is entirely up to you
don't fuck it up, you only have one chance at exsisting
Hedon says (11:53 PM):
By all current understanding we do
We at least only have knowledge of a singular existence
VJmes says (11:53 PM):
A quantum exsistance would be preferable I assure you
any reality in which there is a reality that I am sleeping with your mother is a good reality
Hedon says (11:54 PM):
Hahahaha
Well, yes we could go on to question the existence of a multiverse
of which there is 'evidence' of
VJmes says (11:55 PM):
Meh there's just as much evidence on either side at this point
I'd like to believe it to be real as much as I believe that a 2000 year old zombie can in death bring me to life in a new perfect relaity
but this isn't the land of perpetual lolipops, puppies & rainbows
Hedon says (11:56 PM):
I like to think that the fact that we are capable of discussion like this indicates purpose to our life
VJmes says (11:56 PM):
I don't see how a discussion impacts on anything
outside the people who know of it, the affects on humanity are minimal.
As you can tell
I have a very bleak outlook on everything
Hedon says (11:58 PM):
But how did we manage to develop logical thought?
What purpose does logical thought serve us?
Just an advantage in the ecosystem?
VJmes says (11:58 PM):
I'd say so
Hedon says (11:59 PM):
I don't mind your bleak look, and I generally see things in a very pessimistic way, but I can't be satisfied by a nihilistic philosophy. Although, maybe I will just have to read more about it
VJmes says (11:59 PM):
Humans would've become extinct very quickly had we not developed self-awareness and logical thought
We have no fur to keep us warm
Hedon says (11:59 PM):
Not nessecarily
because not all creatures that haven't developed that are extinct
VJmes says (12:00 AM):
Is true
Hedon says (12:00 AM):
But that's because we created our own fur
VJmes says (12:00 AM):
But we are facing a mass-exstinction at the moment
and suprisingly not because of humans
Hedon says (12:00 AM):
and we migrated to habitats which we shouldnt have
VJmes says (12:00 AM):
exactly
without logical thought we wouldn't have moved anywhere
instinctively living near where we were born, like all mamals
freezing to death
or burning to death
or unable to defend/hunt
Hedon says (12:01 AM):
No, we would be living in Africa
naked savage beasts
VJmes says (12:01 AM):
Yeah we'd be being nommed on by a zebra or something
exstinction by zebras
Hedon says (12:01 AM):
and if it got to hot then we would migrate, by course of natural selection, the smart ones move to the more survivable areas
Bahaha, yes, plausible
VJmes says (12:02 AM):
Either way, we're heading down a totally new can of worms
Though I do love me some evolution
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMRpa_W-YSg [Evolution according to South Park]
Hedon says (12:04 AM):
I like it
also, youtube videos have changed
the fuck
VJmes says (12:04 AM):
I know
Hedon says (12:05 AM):
right click a youtube video, you get new options and such
VJmes says (12:05 AM):
I know
change is scary
does someone need a hug?
Hedon says (12:05 AM):
No, I like change
I've experienced a meaningful change at least every 2-3 years of my life, kinda feel weird when something doesn't change
VJmes says (12:06 AM):
I can't live with consistancy
Hedon says (12:09 AM):
Well, my mind is thoroughly stimulated now
It feels like my brain just had rough, violent, angry sex and is sort of pissed off because the orgasm wasn't as fulfilling as it was hoping
VJmes says (12:10 AM):
Trust me, if I had sex with your brain
it would've orgasmed so many times it'd get sick of orgasms
Hedon says (12:10 AM):
>.>
You ain't that good :3
VJmes says (12:11 AM):
How do you know >_>
Hedon says (12:11 AM):
Cos I've been there gurl *shakes finger* mmmmmhmmmmmmmmmmm
VJmes says (12:11 AM):
ooh ooh
I think after all of that
it's time for some Doors
Hedon says (12:12 AM):
Haha nice
I am going do what I usually do post-coitus and find food and drink a mouthful of coke from the bottle
